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An Interview with Adam R Grose and Tony Suleri Clown Press creators Adam Grose (writer) and Tony Suleri (artist) have produced an epic of rare quality in either mainstream or indie publishing in COSMOGENESIS, an A5 six book series following the rise of simian Quongo from unwitting adventurer to possible messiah. Using the galactic setting, comparable to STAR WARS in its richness, the narrative explores the writer's interest of grand cycles of time, numerology, and the recurring motif of mythological lone saviours prevalent in many cultures. Following the success of COSMOGENESIS, which concludes its first run ‘The Chronicles of Quongo', with book six Rebirth in 2005, Clown Press have several new projects already in development including an anthology title, a soundtrack album, an animation project and more graphic novels. I caught up with the two to have a look back and a look forward at their achievements and aims. BARRY RENSHAW (BJR): We'll start at the beginning then, how did you two meet and start collaborating? |
TONY SULER (TS): That would be way back in the early to mid eighties (about '83) ADAM GROSE (AG): I remember it was the result of living close to each other and we both had a love for drawing. Tony with comics and me with fine art. Tony introduced me to 2000AD, which set my imagination, as we both had a love for Star Wars and such like. TS: The first comics we produced were four-pagers that involved caricatures and usually (in my case at least) they had sci-fi leanings. It was positive feedback of a sort that kind of kept the ball rolling so to speak. AG: I did one for school to hand out based on a character called Judge Life, well you can imagine where he came from. It was good to see people reading the stories and asking for pictures to be drawn etc... TS: …and my strips were pretty derivative of Strontium Dog. AG: Bounty hunters, you gotta love 'em. TS: Having a laugh at various pals transformed into cartoon characters of a sort AG: Watching Tony draw is a pleasure...seeing him create new characters based on observations of life, which in essence began expanding into short strips. BJR: Did you grow up together pretty much then, developing the comics together? TS: Twenty odd years… Not particularly, it wasn't until around 86 or 87 that we started putting together a 'zine of sorts, Underground . AG: Underground was begun in 1987 when we both attended Yeovil College. We wanted to produce a comic magazine in the tradition of EC Comics and other horror and sci-fi, akin to Heavy Metal magazine and old Warren publications. TS: The kind of old comics that would have been pre-Marvel - the black and white reprints of Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were always a source of inspiration.
ABOVE: QUONGO IN HIS SHIP
TS: Well as Ad mentioned earlier it started in '87 and kind of finished in '90 I think maybe eight issues were completed. AG: We wrote and drew various stories, most appearing in Underground . It was set as a ten issue run, printed as A4 books of approx 60 pages. They had a mixture of short stories, mostly surreal and endings with a twist, written and drawn between us, we ran a few longer stories too. Nine issues in total were done. TS: Aha…I remember the twist endings… AG: Some of the longer stories were collected together into self-contained books. The Man Who Hated Tuesday was one of them. Agourus in Cosmogenesis is loosely based on Adgros, a character Tony created based on me. There was always a double page spread on pages two and three, like in Cosmogenesis , saying ‘underGROUND'. TS: That came from a nickname which has pretty much stuck, same with the name Puckton which was a character based on baby face Finlayson from The Beano. AG: …And a character would introduce the stories, a presenter of sorts, like in Creepshow and the EC Comics. TS: Daft names and funny faces appropriated from my reading material of the time. AG: I would like to reprint some stuff, but Tone disagrees, and he is probably right. Cosmogenesis was born out of nearly ten years of fooling around with stories and characters from the pages of Underground , a lot of experimentation with the storytelling, visually as well as written wise. BJR: Nine issues of any self published title is quite an achievement, be interesting if you could dig some copies out for us, and we can spotlight them on the site if you like. Where you just creating comics for your own enjoyment or where you going looking towards the usual path, to pitch towards 2000AD then America? AG: Initially the dream was to work for 2000AD , but I always wanted to create brand new characters and did try a few times. I'm always interested how one can capture the best moment of time in one shot, to convey a feeling. Paintings try to capture a ABOVE: XIANA CITY BJR: I'll come back to the indie scene in a moment, but when and how did you both decide to start Cosmogenesis? You've mentioned how being fans of Planet of the Apes inspired simian character Quongo. Was it structured from the beginning as a 6-issue series or did it grow organically? TS: I'd say organically from my own observation. It's more a vibe thing being a fan of the Apes personally, nothing specific just a feeling. AG: It was originally set as a nine book series... Apes are cool.... TS: The ape was an alternative to drawing your usual common or garden hero. I'm to blame for suggesting an ape; Adam is responsible for the story/mythos of Cosmogenesis . AG: Who ever gave a leading role to an ape? TS: Cosmogenesis started after I'd written and drawn a 48 page strip titled Out on a Limb I'd enjoyed drawing it but writing was (at the time) a bit of a drag, so wanting to do more of the same I asked Adam to write something involving an ape as well as various other characters. The initial ideas came from passing on notes and sketches. AG: Tony presented me with designs and characters which I began to formulise into a story. Tony had pointed out the main character drawings he wanted included. I bought myself a pad and began to record plot ideas and character studies. TS: These sketches detailed in passing some far out costumes and the notion of a large landscape was a given right at the beginning. AG: And I still have them. TS: I still have the original sketches that were the seed of the story. Plenty more ideas left. AG: I began to plot out a story that began to mold into a mythological tale. I've read myths and books about myths since 1996 most notably Graham Hancock's Fingerprints of the Gods and a book called Hamlet's Mill . I liked the idea of myths and religions containing hidden scientific phenomena, tracking stars and talking of star-gates and returning planets, alignments and the crystal ABOVE: ALTEA CITY BJR: Did you find yourself being influenced at all by films or books like Star Wars, The Matrix or Dune, dealing with an unlikely messiah in a sci-fi setting, or were you consciously trying to avoid those clichés ? Were you looking for a more pure version of the archetype as it grew organically? TS: Myself personally, I drew the story direct from Adam's layouts (still do). The Star Wars influence is most seen in from my point of view in the wide-screen flourishes. The speculation from the prequel hype was inspiring. Visually The Matrix I thought was all right and dune had some nice ideas that never seemed to go anywhere AG: Quongo was always going to be what he realises in book four; Armageddon. I had always planned for him to be unaware of his true identity. There are references to a wealth of movies, books, comics and TV series. All this though, for me, only served as a subconscious blueprint for scenes and sequences. I am influenced by what I see, but also trying to build a bridge between all medias. Comics for me are the ultimate in human expression. I would like to see graphic novels on a par with literature. I think in terms of today's culture, it is a post-modernist story. Tarantino references other movies and comic book cultures in his films and a great many directors do this, whether intentional or not. The originality comes from mixing and matching bits of information of what I would love to see in a comic-book. The filmic qualities, the attention to detail and a story involving an unconventional hero in a story involving a sci-fi political and mythological setting, which is formed out of today's current state of affairs, i.e. political corruption, dark shadowy evil, control. But by the end of the story... the overall guiding force is the balance of everything through one person's choice to fulfill what they think is right. I like the idea of choice and if we really have any, or whether it is circumstantial, based purely on the results of other peoples ‘choices'. “The depth within the structure of the story tries to convey a valid history, a suspension of disbelief...” BJR: There's been mention of numerology and cycles of time being explored within the narrative, is that in the actual plotting process itself or just as a theme; as an example, Alan Moore's use of the kabala as a storytelling device in Promethea? AG: I like numbers and cycles of time. I think it is a cool idea to think of the universe as one big time device, created in time and space. My use of numbers reflect an obsession with the Mayan people and their use of numbers in buildings and rituals, expressing the number of days in a year and the seasons, the equinox etc, the Egyptians too. Encoding scientific knowledge carved into stone to hide from those who do not have the code. Books disintegrate, buildings last. I think a lot of ancient cultures knew this and deliberately encoded their knowledge into edifices and buildings for future generations to decipher. The Maya believe in a zero point, where our sun lines up with the centre of our galaxy and at this point, 21/12/2012, energy, information, will be released and change the galaxy, creating a jump in evolution. I like this idea and used the basics. I felt that in a way, I was passing this information to others through the medium of comics. You don't have to be aware of it though. It's there for you to discover if you want to. Certain numbers repeat and as an acknowledgement to the writer of Alice in Wonderland , the number 72 comes up. Carroll used this number a lot. Other numbers are based on the number of days in a year, spiritual numbers like seven and eight. Eight in numerology equals infinity, eight skulls, and nine equals completion. BJR: With such large themes being explored, how do you approach translating it from theme to script to artwork? Do you both work together on the final script or is it script first, art second in the process? TS: Adam writes first, and then he does layouts. Then I either draw from the layouts as they are or re-do them. Then the penciling, then the inking, all along the way we compare ideas and if anything seems dodgy it's dealt with as soon as. That's pretty much the process for Cosmogenesis . AG: Each book is looked at with fresh eyes, each evolving in a different way, a continual experiment. TS: Different stories usually need different approaches. TS: From way back doing stories, however long, the shorthand of layouts has been the most successful approach; with other writers I think I'd prefer a script. AG: For the final book I wrote it as a screenplay format and we toyed around with the idea of Tony supplying finished scenes and I would then edit it like a film, closing in and selecting what I needed, therefore creating the page on the computer. TS: Elements composited . AG: It is something we are sure to do in the future. I don't think the mainstream would approve. TS: For example drawing several angles of the same background and say five postures of a single character with the option to crop or blow up or position anywhere in the 'frame'. AG: I like drawing the story rather than writing it. I can say what I have got to say better in a drawing than in written words. That's not to say I couldn't do it written, I just prefer it. TS: I would say re-compositing isn't a new thing but totally having a strip from scratch cut and pasted is but I'm sure it's been done before. AG: No doubt, especially with computer today. TS: Brendan McCarthy springs to mind, a story from the anthology A4. AG: Even now, if there is an eyebrow not in a correct position that I need it in, or I want t ABOVE: Quongo's revelation BJR: I believe (though may be incorrect about this) that Brett Ewins did something on his Rogue Trooper run, he drew a certain number of panels and just replicated them or clipped them as per the script, though that might say more about the script! I'm sure it's been done more than a few times in US comics as well. There's currently a minor debate among artists about using photo reference too literally, pasting it into a panel directly, and not really making it their own.
AG: Henry Flint does it too, but I think that comes down to the pressure of deadlines. Trouble with photocopiers, when enlarged you can tell, on a computer it's easier to replicate. LEFT: Racocha
BJR: At the end of the day I guess, it's what the story requires that matters. Adams' description of tweaking eyebrows and such is similar in a way to George Lucas' 'virtual editing' process, taking elements from different scenes to compose a full one. He's finally catching up with what comics have been doing for years, and spending a lot of money in the process! AG: Yes, I saw him do that on the Episode One DVD and was amazed that he could do that. Lucas is a comic book artist in the film world.
AG: I don't have a problem with this, as long as the story doesn't suffer, but some people might think that the story is incomplete and therefore it has holes that need filling. It's a debate that will carry on, no doubt, due to Lucas' further edits with the trilogy. RIGHT: Action from Book Six BJR: Lucas' skill I think does lay in visual storytelling rather than scripting, and his ability is to create worlds (though the special editions are a whole other conversation!). This leads me to the visual aspect of Cosmogenesis, the various worlds and cultures, the design process. Were you directly referencing other cultures etc? Is Cosmogenesis a long time ago in a galaxy far away or a far future? TS: I'd say a parallel universe myself. AG: There are cultures and language. Characters bring this to the book as it is their history. Something that will appear in the final book will be reference material to these cultures, namely a glossary and appendices. I like the way history books do this and that Alan Moore did this with Watchmen , giving more in-depth views on character and why they are the way they are. There needs to be a balance though, otherwise I could get a little carried away. I want people to take their time reading a book, something that needs to be re-read and re-looked at. The depth within the structure of the story tries to convey a valid history, a suspension of disbelief. I like the idea of being transported somewhere else in my mind.
BJR: Exactly. I think by adding the annotations especially when creating literally an entire universe, it helps not just sell the story to a reader as a concept, but also helps them invest in the characters more, gives it more weight in reality. Again unfortunately using another Lucas reference, but he has said you create an entire universe then show the tiniest fraction on screen or the page, and it gets them wanting more. And helpfully creates a multimedia merchandise and spin-off industry! AG: It made me laugh when Lucas said he was fighting against the corporations that are in charge of Hollywood, only to become one himself. He became what he was trying to run away from. BJR: The revolutionaries become the establishment! BJR: After book six, there is still obviously a rich universe to come back to. You mentioned earlier of the growth of s/p publishers and many are turning to the graphic novel format rather than traditional anthologies. Do you think this is way forward first for yourselves and/or the Brit comic industry? AG: Personally I like complete books either as a series, or as a one off. TS: I like lengthy comics personally something with a little more bite than twenty-two pages, something around the thirty-five page mark. A hundred page story broken into three parts beginning middle and an end sort of thing. AG: I like a story to warm up gradually, delve deeper into characters. Most mainstreamers are straight in with the firing and explosions. AG: … like films with a slow pace that builds with every step; i.e. Unbreakable . TS: I liked The Sixth Sense and to a lesser extent Unbreakable but I find that Shyamalan has crippled himself with his twist ending gimmicks. From my point of view that structure requires the discipline of making sure all the elements are in place and that the story point have to be strong enough to carry each segment AG: True; the bread crumb scenario, a little bit here, a little bit there. BJR: Why do you think more small pressers are pursuing this GN format first? TS: Economics.
TS: Hit the nail on the head first time (hopefully) and build / experiment around the crater of impact. Personally I think the price of comics as well as their general unavailability (compared to the 1970's say) is the reason one-offs are the model for small pressers. LEFT: Joe Kerness in his ship BJR: I think there's a few self publishers out there that can be on the verge of a mainstream breakthrough, Bulldog being one of the strongest of them, because of such an iconic character and years of developing the universe. We can hope anyway. AG: Absolutely. BJR: Will you be looking to collect Cosmogenesis in a larger format edition? AG: This is an issue we're thinking about at the moment. There are several ideas. It will eventually come out as one book, it has always been the intention; how, is open to debate. I like the idea of an A5 book, easy to carry with you on the train, pocket etc, but some prefer the American format. I'm considering the larger formats in the tradition of the Europeans or the Japanese. BJR: On an aesthetic level I personally think the art would be better served in a larger format, though I was brought up on the Battle/Eagle/2000AD magazine sizes, or European album format. I feel Cosmogenesis has an untapped audience in Europe. I think the US format can be limiting to the medium, there's a lot still to explore on just how a book is put together physically and how that can influence storytelling. What projects are in development after book six? AG: A new story following the adventures of a ninja lady in the book Phoenix . This was written whilst traveling in India, the Philippines and Mexico. This will be a larger format and different in design from Cosmogenesis , hopefully hardback like the European books produced by Les Humanoids. TS: Another ape story unrelated to the universe of the 'genesis and another story that's very much a work in progress. Maybe something akin to superheroes one day AG: There are also some one shots based on Cosmogenesis , of which I am hoping Tony will draw one of them involving the team Quongo met between book one and two and reappear in book six. TS: Beyond that who can say. Cosmogenesis has been instrumental in getting both Adam and me noticed to a certain extent. In short I can't see either of us resting on any laurels anytime soon. AG: Other than the above, I'm currently working on a book completely different than what I have done before, looking at the various interpretations of love. This is told from the perspective of two old men sat on a bench next to a memorial. Life from their perspective and how he fits in all of this, based upon the history of his life. It will come out as a GN and a nice twist at the end too.
RIGHT: Joe Kerness and shades BJR: Cool. Is the Phoenix story still set within the Cosmogenesis universe? Are there still plans to develop into animation and an anthology title? AG: Phoenix is separate from Cosmogenesis . It is set on one world in a time before technology. More like Akira Kurosawa than Lucas. Seven Samurai is an amazing film and we love martial arts and fantasy, so it's our take on it. There are recurring themes in the sense of good versus evil, but this is more on a personal level with Phoenix . Animation is still being done; I'm hoping to have a trailer style piece for Bristol next year... what I have done thus far is workable. The soundtrack album for Cosmogenesis should be completed in time for the release of book six, just waiting on a couple of songs from a mate of ours, Steve Wraight. The anthology title for Redux Graphix is still planned, depending on other artists and writers getting their work to Clown Press in time. More of a showcase book of sci-fi/ fantasy stories, I will be editing… so send us your ideas. BJR: The UK indie scene continues to rapidly expand on all sides, as mentioned before, some seemingly ready to break into the mainstream. How do you both see UK comics progressing? TS: I hope 2000AD carries on. Other than the Beano , the Dandy and licensed titles, it seems the small press is where it's at for a chance of some kind of recognition. I think the respective comics will carry on as usual, and I think it's the responsibility of the self-published to think outside the box and maybe to band together to create some kind of imprint for a greater recognition. AG: There is a lot of creativity out there and Britain is renowned for its creative talent. The trouble lies with the cornering of the market with shops like WHSmith. The rise of the internet has freed a lot of people to share and distribute their work more easily, gaining recognition with a wider audience. Amazon helps and having magazines like REDEYE help. REDEYE helps to show the wider public that there is more than the 'norm' out there and gives people more choice, which is always a good thing. Comics allow a freedom of expression and free speech, obviously within the law. The wide variety further exemplifies the many tastes this country has to offer, and it doesn't standardise things into neat boxes. Ultimately it would be nice to see shops like WH Smith and HMV and others stocking your magazine. BJR: Thanks for the support, it's good to know REDEYE is doing its job, and if we could get a mention in Comics International and other magazines that would help immensely in boosting awareness. I think newsstand would be the way to finally kick-start the UK industry again but the costs involved are massive.
BJR: Along with Book Six of Cosmogenesis, what can readers expect to see in 2005 from Clown Press? Any convention appearances planned? AG: Comic Expo in Bristol and maybe London as well as some others (film and TV conventions).
TS: Do not jump in at the deep end, start small and make sure you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Be consistent, have an idea of what the 'score' is and keep on keeping on. AG: Keep believing in what you do! Thanks to Adam and Tony for taking time out for this interview. END |
moment, a moment that can be described in thousands of words. The image, the way it is painted, the artistic quality and cultural identities associated with the artist and his/her chosen subjects... all for the purpose of conveying a narrative. This is how I try to convey a story. We also liked the idea of being independent, free from the constraints of a commercial market. After the success of the first book of Cosmogenesis , it struck me how big the independents were growing in coverage and therefore becoming more recognized. The internet and cheaper quality printing facilities has opened up the market to a wider alternative 'mainstream.' Every one of us can now produce a book for a reasonable price and get distribution at a cost we can all afford, sharing thoughts, ideas and stories. 
skulls of Mexico. So I began to create the hero in the style of the many mythological heroes who do battle against evil and fight for the rights of their culture. Each culture with its own hero, come to take the evil away and lead the people to the enlightened path. Of course, some of these tales became religions. Once I had written the story (recorded) I began to thumbnail the drawings giving a general outline of the story. Measuring 3 inch by 2 inch, I drafted out a full version. Using characters from Tony, we worked together to form sequences we both wanted to see in the first book. I realised afterwards that what I had sketched out was too big a story for one book, so I cut it down into books. As each book developed, things changed and new ideas were brought forward. It is a continual editing process. 
o change the eyes position in the way the characters look, I do it on computer. Tony doesn't need to re-draw. It doesn't happen often though, but I am intrigued to try this new approach out, maybe on a short story. 
TS: Last seen with young Anakin Skywalker replacing the old Anakin Skywalker. [seen in ending scenes of RETURN OF THE JEDI DVD release]. 
LEFT: Dizzying detail in Quongos' ship 
AG: Agreed. 
AG: Yes, cost spiral. I think the streets and shopping is changing though. Shoppers are more aware of the choices they have when buying, which I think shops are beginning to finally realise this, more so now after this Christmas season.